As Abbe Georges de Nantes decades ago wrote, the modern Church naturalizes the supernatural and supernaturalizes the natural.
And the nonsense of Teilhard de Chardin is lurking behind this quote: "Even the Eucharist is reframed: no longer simply the re-presentation of the Sacrifice of Calvary, it is now “projected toward divinization” of the cosmos (Laudato Si’, 236).
Conflating the supernatural and the natural orders is the entire premise of the nouvelle théologie. I had a professor in college who said that "even an atheistic communist who performs a good deed like conserving the environment is participating in the Paschal Mystery."
Exactly! I immediately thought of Footprints in the Darkened Forest and how Archbishop Fulton Sheen in 1967 wrote and I paraphrase '50 years from now, Teilhard will be vindicated and canonized when the world catches up to his forward looking assertions.'
That one chapter probably will keep resonating. Sheen like Ratzinger sipped the wine of that so-called Summer of Love, heck we all did, even this 8 year old. I know they both had wake up calls and repented.
Now we see the last hurrah of those who didn't correct their alignment, who didn't reorient back to TRUE EAST.
Chicago politics and ideology is a toxic mix. We REALLY need to pray Our Lord reveals himself to shepherd us home.
I read years ago that in effect the thought of Aquinas held sway over the Council of Trent. Chardin's ideas did the same at Vatican II. I read "Footprints" about a dozen years ago. I hope Sheen changed his mind but have seen no evidence of such.
I posted this for Rollo above, but after reading your reply will add it here too. (My last act before rushing off to NO Mass)
It's sad Rollo, this infighting. I look to Our Lady of Guadalupe and ask, if she appeared then and she appeared at Fatima, would all the current dissenters agree that SHE would appear and denounce where we are now, being Our Loving Mother and Mother of the Church? Wouldn't we hear her say, 'Get out of Her, and ..."
The point is, we haven't heard this. We have heard, if one is to accept the illuminations from Mission Divine Mercy in Canyon Lake, TX, that a usurper has taken over. I have been there three times. I walked to the high ground and prayed there. I have no reason to doubt Fr. John Mary's and Sr. Amapola's authenticity.
So we do well to really FOCUS on Jesus and trust in Him.
I maintain that we are living Chapter 10 of Revelation and the veiled 'angel' IS Jesus Christ, leading the Church Himself...as the 7th and final Trumpet is being raised.
It's gonna be a wild ride to the finish line.
As we used to say in the Army, "See ya on the High Ground!"
The whole NWO are 'children of bondage', including the V2 ministers of mayhem who have no Catholic faith. As the article makes plain it is all about the corruptible because they deny the incorruptible.
"Which things are said by an allegory. For these are the two testaments. The one from mount Sina, engendering unto bondage; which is Agar: For Sina is a mountain in Arabia, which hath affinity to that Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But that Jerusalem, which is above, is free: which is our mother. For it is written: Rejoice, thou barren, that bearest not: break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for many are the children of the desolate, more than of her that hath a husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise." Galations 4:24-28
I love how people in comment sections (here and elsewhere) justify their "choices" as " no choice".
I had no choice but...
*to follow (evil) orders
*to take the poison shot
*to turn in my neighbor
*to accept Vatican 2
*to recognize & obey false popes
*to go to the Novus Ordo Mass
*to go to the TLM Indult Mass
*to take the Mark of the Beast
See how easily and quickly it progresses. Satan and those doing his bidding understand this all too well. When Antichrist comes, Catholics everywhere will be justifying themselves by quoting St. Catherine of Sienna's "Devil Pope" speech even more than they have been since Vatican 2. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
Truly, Sedevacante is the only safe harbor along with the 15 Decade Rosary.
If it's either no mass or the NO mass I'll take the NO mass rather than go without the sacraments. Of course, we've had and do have some terrible Popes, but you Sedevacntists think the NO mass is illegitimate because you're a crazy cult.
You don’t get the Body and Blood of Christ in Paul VI’s rite because even in its reverent form, it is not the propitiatory sacrifice, but a memorial meal celebrating the “paschal mystery.” As Fr Denis Chanoine said 44 years ago “I’m not telling you not to go to Mass, I’m telling you you don’t have a Mass to go to.”
John - are you saying that an individual minister's erroneous understanding of liturgy necessarily leads to invalidity? There's no denying that many people hold erroneous understandings of what the Mass is, but the bar for invalidity is quite high:
The author, Fr Luigi Villa (d. 2012), was told by Padre Pio in the mid-1950s that he had a special mission to expose Masonic infiltration into the Church hierarchy. Pius XII gave him a secret Papal Mandate to do so, under certain conditions, after hearing of this. Fr Villa survived 7 assassination attempts for his efforts. He tried to stop the beatifications of John XXIII, Paul VI, & John Paul II, hard to do since JPII for ulterior motives eliminated the important "Devil's Advocate" from the canonization process, thus fast-tracking his own & many others' false canonizations.
We are in the time of the prophesied Great Apostasy.
Cardinal Mario Ciappi, who read the Third Secret of Fatima, said, "In the Third Secret it is revealed, among other things, that the Great Apostasy in the Church will begin at the top." (letter to Prof. Baumgartner, 1995) What is "the top" but the papacy? It began at the vitiated 1958 papal conclave.
RosaryKnight - You are answering an entirely different question than the one I asked John, which was about whether theological error on the part of a minister necessarily invalidates a sacrament. You are raising questions about a totally different issue, namely, whether certain ministers were validly consecrated or ordained, which is not relevant to what I asked. The question of who is or isn't the pope is also completely irrelevant, because the objective criteria that render a sacrament valid or not have absolutely nothing to do with who the pope is or isn't. Those criteria are set by God, not by the pope.
So let me ask again: presuming that all the other causes are valid (matter, form, and minister), does theological error on the part of the minister necessarily lead to invalidity?
It was issued by a false pope whose original instruction for the rite had such a purely Protestant doctrine of a memorial meal to celebrate Christ’s sacrifice that he was obliged to paperclip in a couple of Catholic sentences, without changing a single line anywhere in the Missal. If all we had to go by was the TLM to compare with Paul VI’s rite and Missal, the Catholic faith could be clearly understood from the rite of 1500 years standing and would be unable to glean anything such understanding from the 1969-1970 version, which is entirely compatible with liturgical Lutheranism and Anglicanism. That was the reason it was created to begin with, to be ecumenical snd unobjectionable to Protestants. People clamor for better catechesis from their bishops, but Paul VI’s rite was INTENDED to be easily graspable teaching and celebration in the vernacular language. And so people derive from it something which falls far short from Catholic Faith.
John - You wrote a lot here without actually answering the question I posed. So let me ask again: presuming that all the other causes are valid (matter, form, and minister), does theological error on the part of the minister necessarily lead to invalidity by affecting intention?
Ex opera operato applies to real Masses. Since the Protestatholic prayer service of Paul VI was composed to be pleasing to the heretics, and is no Mass, but an offense to God and has been since it was imposed, and anyone attending it is offending God, despite their personal intentions or personal faith.
They’ve been doing that for decades, alas. When I was still in Conciliar clutches, I used to think “Something’s wrong with this quote.” Of course it was medieval hyperbole and not a literal recommendation. It was a “on the impossible grounds that a pope could be the devil”, etc.
Thank you John, I appreciate your comment. Unfortunately, in the past five years everyone I've seen use this quote in comment sections means it literally as their defense and justification of and submitting to "bad popes". God bless you, Mary keep you.
Will this segment come before or after the great liturgical group hug called the sign of peace? Thanks for the heads up on this. Been years since I had to suffer thru a Novus Ordo mass. If I ever wind up in one in the future I will be sure to take my bottle of roundup with me.
I've had no choice but to go to a NO mass, but thankfully I've had reverent Priests with none of the freaky stuff we read about. I've always hated the sign of peace segment of the mass. It's foolish, sentimental and breaks up the flow and what little reverence there is in the NO.
This is another reason why it is necessary to recognize the invalidity of Prevost's election and the election of Catholic pope by the faithful of Rome as promulgated by Pope Nicolas II in his Bull In Nomine Domine.
The NO Mass is already the abomination of desolation. It is strange fire concocted by human fantasies about what the early Church did, and it is condemned by God as much as the strange fire offered by Aaron’s two sons, and the penalty for offering it is spiritual death.
If what you are saying in your comments is true, wouldn't that mean that at some point in the recent past, God has removed his Divine protection from His Church and set it adrift? Even though He promised never to do that?
It's sad Rollo, this infighting. I look to Our Lady of Guadalupe and ask, if she appeared then and she appeared at Fatima, would all the current dissenters agree that SHE would appear and denounce where we are now, being Our Loving Mother and Mother of the Church? Wouldn't we hear her say, 'Get out of Her, and ..."
The point is, we haven't heard this. We have heard, if one is to accept the illuminations from Mission Divine Mercy in Canyon Lake, TX, that a usurper has taken over. I have been there three times. I walked to the high ground and prayed there. I have no reason to doubt Fr. John Mary's and Sr. Amapola's authenticity.
So we do well to really FOCUS on Jesus and trust in Him.
I maintain that we are living Chapter 10 of Revelation and the veiled 'angel' IS Jesus Christ, leading the Church Himself...as the 7th and final Trumpet is being raised.
It's gonna be a wild ride to the finish line.
As we used to say in the Army, "See ya on the High Ground!"
God did not remove His protection from the Church. Those who became heretics and apostates removed themselves from His Church, and fostered an entire false religion in false claims to be successors of the Apostles.
If I had to point to a turning point in the Catholic Church, besides VII, I would say it was the Boston Globe reporting on the rampant sexual abuse in the Church. It's almost as if the hierarchy got mad at being caught with their pants down and decided to destroy the Faith out of spite. If only they had listened to St Peter Damian.
"ideological compost of Laudato Si’ and Laudate Deum". Lol. Except upon further consideration LS & LD are an ideological hazchem matter, upon which more toxins are being applied courtesy of Prevost-Poisonous-Waste-Inc.
It just further demonstrates that P6 ‘s creation is trash. I call the Vatican the P6 Lodge , to reference Pul 6 (to echo the P2 Lodge which was the arm for all this excrement to start with).
As Abbe Georges de Nantes decades ago wrote, the modern Church naturalizes the supernatural and supernaturalizes the natural.
And the nonsense of Teilhard de Chardin is lurking behind this quote: "Even the Eucharist is reframed: no longer simply the re-presentation of the Sacrifice of Calvary, it is now “projected toward divinization” of the cosmos (Laudato Si’, 236).
Conflating the supernatural and the natural orders is the entire premise of the nouvelle théologie. I had a professor in college who said that "even an atheistic communist who performs a good deed like conserving the environment is participating in the Paschal Mystery."
Exactly! I immediately thought of Footprints in the Darkened Forest and how Archbishop Fulton Sheen in 1967 wrote and I paraphrase '50 years from now, Teilhard will be vindicated and canonized when the world catches up to his forward looking assertions.'
That one chapter probably will keep resonating. Sheen like Ratzinger sipped the wine of that so-called Summer of Love, heck we all did, even this 8 year old. I know they both had wake up calls and repented.
Now we see the last hurrah of those who didn't correct their alignment, who didn't reorient back to TRUE EAST.
Chicago politics and ideology is a toxic mix. We REALLY need to pray Our Lord reveals himself to shepherd us home.
I don't expect Rome to be doing it.
I read years ago that in effect the thought of Aquinas held sway over the Council of Trent. Chardin's ideas did the same at Vatican II. I read "Footprints" about a dozen years ago. I hope Sheen changed his mind but have seen no evidence of such.
I posted this for Rollo above, but after reading your reply will add it here too. (My last act before rushing off to NO Mass)
It's sad Rollo, this infighting. I look to Our Lady of Guadalupe and ask, if she appeared then and she appeared at Fatima, would all the current dissenters agree that SHE would appear and denounce where we are now, being Our Loving Mother and Mother of the Church? Wouldn't we hear her say, 'Get out of Her, and ..."
The point is, we haven't heard this. We have heard, if one is to accept the illuminations from Mission Divine Mercy in Canyon Lake, TX, that a usurper has taken over. I have been there three times. I walked to the high ground and prayed there. I have no reason to doubt Fr. John Mary's and Sr. Amapola's authenticity.
So we do well to really FOCUS on Jesus and trust in Him.
I maintain that we are living Chapter 10 of Revelation and the veiled 'angel' IS Jesus Christ, leading the Church Himself...as the 7th and final Trumpet is being raised.
It's gonna be a wild ride to the finish line.
As we used to say in the Army, "See ya on the High Ground!"
Thank you for reminding me to pay no more attention to that man in front of the curtain.
People behind climate histeria want a new world order. Secret societies: chaos and fear to bring about their hell on earth.
I love to be out in nature- we don't need a one world order to fix nature
The whole NWO are 'children of bondage', including the V2 ministers of mayhem who have no Catholic faith. As the article makes plain it is all about the corruptible because they deny the incorruptible.
"Which things are said by an allegory. For these are the two testaments. The one from mount Sina, engendering unto bondage; which is Agar: For Sina is a mountain in Arabia, which hath affinity to that Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But that Jerusalem, which is above, is free: which is our mother. For it is written: Rejoice, thou barren, that bearest not: break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for many are the children of the desolate, more than of her that hath a husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise." Galations 4:24-28
Except the eco-wackos no longer hug trees but cut them down to put up solar panels and wind turbines.
I love how people in comment sections (here and elsewhere) justify their "choices" as " no choice".
I had no choice but...
*to follow (evil) orders
*to take the poison shot
*to turn in my neighbor
*to accept Vatican 2
*to recognize & obey false popes
*to go to the Novus Ordo Mass
*to go to the TLM Indult Mass
*to take the Mark of the Beast
See how easily and quickly it progresses. Satan and those doing his bidding understand this all too well. When Antichrist comes, Catholics everywhere will be justifying themselves by quoting St. Catherine of Sienna's "Devil Pope" speech even more than they have been since Vatican 2. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
Truly, Sedevacante is the only safe harbor along with the 15 Decade Rosary.
If it's either no mass or the NO mass I'll take the NO mass rather than go without the sacraments. Of course, we've had and do have some terrible Popes, but you Sedevacntists think the NO mass is illegitimate because you're a crazy cult.
You don’t get the Body and Blood of Christ in Paul VI’s rite because even in its reverent form, it is not the propitiatory sacrifice, but a memorial meal celebrating the “paschal mystery.” As Fr Denis Chanoine said 44 years ago “I’m not telling you not to go to Mass, I’m telling you you don’t have a Mass to go to.”
John - are you saying that an individual minister's erroneous understanding of liturgy necessarily leads to invalidity? There's no denying that many people hold erroneous understandings of what the Mass is, but the bar for invalidity is quite high:
https://dorothealudwigwang.substack.com/p/intention-and-sacramental-validity
Invalidity of V2 Holy Orders began with "Saint" Paul VI invalidating the episcopal consecration rite in 1968.
https://novusordowatch.org/2018/06/unholy-orders-50-years-invalid-ordinations (the website has a wealth of info.)
I'm convinced he did it intentionally. Others may too after looking at a summary of his evils, which V2 catholics are unaware of.
chiesaviva.com/lettera%20ai%20cardinali/letter%20to%20cardinals.pdf
The author, Fr Luigi Villa (d. 2012), was told by Padre Pio in the mid-1950s that he had a special mission to expose Masonic infiltration into the Church hierarchy. Pius XII gave him a secret Papal Mandate to do so, under certain conditions, after hearing of this. Fr Villa survived 7 assassination attempts for his efforts. He tried to stop the beatifications of John XXIII, Paul VI, & John Paul II, hard to do since JPII for ulterior motives eliminated the important "Devil's Advocate" from the canonization process, thus fast-tracking his own & many others' false canonizations.
We are in the time of the prophesied Great Apostasy.
Cardinal Mario Ciappi, who read the Third Secret of Fatima, said, "In the Third Secret it is revealed, among other things, that the Great Apostasy in the Church will begin at the top." (letter to Prof. Baumgartner, 1995) What is "the top" but the papacy? It began at the vitiated 1958 papal conclave.
novusordowatch.org/2016/10/smoke-signals-white-smoke-1958
whitesmoke1958.com (including very important interviews)
RosaryKnight - You are answering an entirely different question than the one I asked John, which was about whether theological error on the part of a minister necessarily invalidates a sacrament. You are raising questions about a totally different issue, namely, whether certain ministers were validly consecrated or ordained, which is not relevant to what I asked. The question of who is or isn't the pope is also completely irrelevant, because the objective criteria that render a sacrament valid or not have absolutely nothing to do with who the pope is or isn't. Those criteria are set by God, not by the pope.
So let me ask again: presuming that all the other causes are valid (matter, form, and minister), does theological error on the part of the minister necessarily lead to invalidity?
It was issued by a false pope whose original instruction for the rite had such a purely Protestant doctrine of a memorial meal to celebrate Christ’s sacrifice that he was obliged to paperclip in a couple of Catholic sentences, without changing a single line anywhere in the Missal. If all we had to go by was the TLM to compare with Paul VI’s rite and Missal, the Catholic faith could be clearly understood from the rite of 1500 years standing and would be unable to glean anything such understanding from the 1969-1970 version, which is entirely compatible with liturgical Lutheranism and Anglicanism. That was the reason it was created to begin with, to be ecumenical snd unobjectionable to Protestants. People clamor for better catechesis from their bishops, but Paul VI’s rite was INTENDED to be easily graspable teaching and celebration in the vernacular language. And so people derive from it something which falls far short from Catholic Faith.
John - You wrote a lot here without actually answering the question I posed. So let me ask again: presuming that all the other causes are valid (matter, form, and minister), does theological error on the part of the minister necessarily lead to invalidity by affecting intention?
Ex opera operato applies to real Masses. Since the Protestatholic prayer service of Paul VI was composed to be pleasing to the heretics, and is no Mass, but an offense to God and has been since it was imposed, and anyone attending it is offending God, despite their personal intentions or personal faith.
They’ve been doing that for decades, alas. When I was still in Conciliar clutches, I used to think “Something’s wrong with this quote.” Of course it was medieval hyperbole and not a literal recommendation. It was a “on the impossible grounds that a pope could be the devil”, etc.
Thank you John, I appreciate your comment. Unfortunately, in the past five years everyone I've seen use this quote in comment sections means it literally as their defense and justification of and submitting to "bad popes". God bless you, Mary keep you.
Will this segment come before or after the great liturgical group hug called the sign of peace? Thanks for the heads up on this. Been years since I had to suffer thru a Novus Ordo mass. If I ever wind up in one in the future I will be sure to take my bottle of roundup with me.
I've had no choice but to go to a NO mass, but thankfully I've had reverent Priests with none of the freaky stuff we read about. I've always hated the sign of peace segment of the mass. It's foolish, sentimental and breaks up the flow and what little reverence there is in the NO.
Brother Bugnolo over a fromrome.info suggests that this is the first step towards instituting a black mass as an official ritual.
https://www.fromrome.info/2025/06/30/prevosts-first-step-towards-instituting-satanic-black-mass-as-official-ritual/
This is another reason why it is necessary to recognize the invalidity of Prevost's election and the election of Catholic pope by the faithful of Rome as promulgated by Pope Nicolas II in his Bull In Nomine Domine.
https://www.fromrome.info/2025/06/01/project-save-rome/
The NO Mass is already the abomination of desolation. It is strange fire concocted by human fantasies about what the early Church did, and it is condemned by God as much as the strange fire offered by Aaron’s two sons, and the penalty for offering it is spiritual death.
If what you are saying in your comments is true, wouldn't that mean that at some point in the recent past, God has removed his Divine protection from His Church and set it adrift? Even though He promised never to do that?
It's sad Rollo, this infighting. I look to Our Lady of Guadalupe and ask, if she appeared then and she appeared at Fatima, would all the current dissenters agree that SHE would appear and denounce where we are now, being Our Loving Mother and Mother of the Church? Wouldn't we hear her say, 'Get out of Her, and ..."
The point is, we haven't heard this. We have heard, if one is to accept the illuminations from Mission Divine Mercy in Canyon Lake, TX, that a usurper has taken over. I have been there three times. I walked to the high ground and prayed there. I have no reason to doubt Fr. John Mary's and Sr. Amapola's authenticity.
So we do well to really FOCUS on Jesus and trust in Him.
I maintain that we are living Chapter 10 of Revelation and the veiled 'angel' IS Jesus Christ, leading the Church Himself...as the 7th and final Trumpet is being raised.
It's gonna be a wild ride to the finish line.
As we used to say in the Army, "See ya on the High Ground!"
God did not remove His protection from the Church. Those who became heretics and apostates removed themselves from His Church, and fostered an entire false religion in false claims to be successors of the Apostles.
Someone should CGI Leo's head on the tree hugger.
If I had to point to a turning point in the Catholic Church, besides VII, I would say it was the Boston Globe reporting on the rampant sexual abuse in the Church. It's almost as if the hierarchy got mad at being caught with their pants down and decided to destroy the Faith out of spite. If only they had listened to St Peter Damian.
"ideological compost of Laudato Si’ and Laudate Deum". Lol. Except upon further consideration LS & LD are an ideological hazchem matter, upon which more toxins are being applied courtesy of Prevost-Poisonous-Waste-Inc.
It just further demonstrates that P6 ‘s creation is trash. I call the Vatican the P6 Lodge , to reference Pul 6 (to echo the P2 Lodge which was the arm for all this excrement to start with).